* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. [00:00:01] HELLO, I'M LARRY PAYNE, HOST OF DIALOGUE HOUSTON AND INTERCHANGE COMMUNITY OF AFFAIRS TALK SHOWS. JOIN ME FOR AN ONGOING CONVERSATION AROUND THE ISSUE SHAPING AND TRANSFORMING HOUSTON AS WE EXPLORE THEIR IMPACT WITH SOME OF OUR CITY'S MOST INNOVATIVE AND CREATIVE LEADERS OF OUR TIME. WELCOME TO THIS WEEK'S SEGMENT OF CONVERSATIONS WITH LARRY PAYNE. SO GREAT TO HAVE YOU JOIN US AND AS ALWAYS BE IN THE BEGINNING OF THE SHOW. LET ME THANK YOU FOR YOUR THOUGHTFUL CALLS, EMAILS, AND TEXT MESSAGES FOR PREVIOUS SHOWS. WE ARE AIRED HERE, AND YOUR THOUGHTFUL IDEAS FOR GUEST TOPICS AND SUBJECTS TO BE COVERED ON UPCOMING SEGMENTS. WE LOOK FORWARD TO BEING A, A GREAT PART OF YOUR ONGOING EDUCATIONAL PROCESS AS WE MOVE INTO THE FALL OF THE REST OF THIS YEAR AND SOME GREAT EXCITING THINGS COMING ALREADY THAT WE'RE PLANNING FOR 2024. I HAVE A GREAT GUEST FOR US TODAY TO LOOK AT SOME ISSUES AND ASPECTS AROUND AFRICAN AMERICAN HISTORY AND JUNETEENTH AND ALL THOSE THINGS THAT WE TEND TO FOCUS ON IN THIS LITTLE PERIOD OF JUNETEENTH. UH, JOINING ME IS DR. JAMES T. JONES II, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF HISTORY AT PRAIRIE VIEW A AND M UNIVERSITY, UH, AN IMPORTANT PART. HE'S A GRADUATE OF D OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY. HE TAUGHT ME TO MAKE SURE I SAID IT RIGHT, . UH, HE ALSO HAS A WONDERFUL PROJECT CALLED MANHOOD, RACE AND CULTURE, WHICH YOU'LL TELL YOU A LITTLE BIT ABOUT LATER AS WE GET INTO THE SHOW. IT'S A, IT'S A SUCCESSFUL ROADMAP FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS. I'M REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO HAVING HIM SHARE THAT INFORMATION WITH US. BUT LEMME START OFF AND JUST SAY, WELCOME DR. JONES. THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, SARAH. GREAT TO HAVE YOU JOIN US HERE. IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE. AS WE WERE TALKING BEFORE WE STARTED FILMING, UH, THIS IS IMPORTANT THIS TIME OF YEAR YES. TO TALK ABOUT JUNETEENTH AND I HIGHLIGHT JUNETEENTH AND I WANT YOU TO TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH JUNETEENTH. 'CAUSE YOU'VE BEEN GIVING TALKS AND LECTURES ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY VIS-A-VIS ZOOM ON, ON JUNETEENTH. MM-HMM . UH, HOW ARE PEOPLE CAPTURING, UNDERSTANDING AND EMBRACING THE TRUE CONCEPTS OF JUNETEENTH? YOU KNOW, UH, I'M, I'M NOT SURE THEY'RE, THEY'RE GRASPING THE TRUE CONCEPT OF JUNETEENTH OF WHAT ACTUALLY OCCURRED. I'VE BEEN INUNDATED WITH REQUESTS TO SPEAK. MM-HMM . I, I DID PENN STATE THIS WEEK. I'M GETTING READY TO DO, UM, A GENEALOGICAL SOCIETY OUT OF PRINCE GEORGE'S COUNTY, MARYLAND TOMORROW. PEOPLE KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT WHAT JUNETEENTH ACTUALLY IS, AND THEIR INTEREST HAS BEEN RAISED UP SOLELY BECAUSE IT'S NOW A NATIONAL HOLIDAY. MM-HMM . HOLIDAY. MM-HMM . SO THEY'RE, THEY'RE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IT'S ABOUT. AND I'M FIGHTING AGAINST THIS IDEA OF WHAT I TERM THE GHETTOIZATION OF JUNETEENTH, MOVING IT OUT OF THE MAINSTREAM 365 HISTORY OF AM OF AMERICAN HISTORY. MM-HMM . AND THAT'S A, A FIGHT IN AND OF ITSELF. SO WE'RE TRYING TO DO INFORMATION INSPIRATION AND GET BLACK AND WHITE, ALL, ALL PEOPLE TO OBSERVE JUNETEENTH AND UNDERSTAND THAT JUNETEENTH IS INTEGRAL TO UNDERSTANDING WHERE WE ARE TODAY IN AMERICA. HOW HAS THIS MOVEMENT, UH, FOR MORE UNDERSTANDING OF, OF DIVERSITY, EQUITY, INCLUSION, AND ALL THOSE THINGS THAT WE'VE BEEN KIND OF GETTING ALL EXCITED ABOUT, PARTICULARLY AFTER GEORGE FLOYD, EVERYBODY GOT ON THE BANDWAGON OF D AND I MM-HMM . HOW DOES THEY, HOW DOES THAT RELATE TO THE UNDERSTANDING OF JUNETEENTH? SEEMS TO ME YOU'D HAVE TO KIND OF HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF BOTH TO MAKE 'EM EITHER ONE OF 'EM WORK. YEAH. YOU, YOU KNOW, WE WE'RE REALLY TALKING ABOUT THE IDEA OF EDUCATING AND SOCIALIZING PEOPLE. RIGHT. I BELIEVE THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE, ARE WELL-MEANING, AND THEY'RE GOING OFF OF THE INFORMATION THAT THEY HAVE. AND IF YOU'VE BEEN RAISED IN A SOCIETY THAT DENIGRATES BLACKNESS AND TELLS PEOPLE THAT BLACKNESS HAS, BLACK FOLK HAVE NEVER CREATED ANYTHING, NEVER DONE ANYTHING, WHAT HAVE YOU, WELL, YOU'RE GOING TO DRAW SOME CONCLUSIONS MM-HMM . ABOUT BLACK FOLK, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAVE NOT, AND THIS IS ONE OF THE, THE STRANGEST THINGS ABOUT HOW AMERICAN HISTORY KIND OF PARALLELS ITSELF AT CERTAIN POINTS. WHEN YOU, WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE, THE MINSTREL SHOW ERA, THAT WAS A MOMENT OF WHAT I REFER TO AS, BECAUSE THESE ARE VAUDEVILLE SHOWS MM-HMM . SO YOU'RE DEALING WITH ENTERTAINMENT, BUT MANY OF THESE WHITE FOLK HAVE NEVER HAD A DECENT CONVERSATION WITH BLACK FOLK. RIGHT. SO YOU'RE DEALING WITH EDU EDUCATION AS WELL. RIGHT. ALTHOUGH IT'S A MISEDUCATION AS CARTER G WOODSON WOULD REFER TO IT. SO THIS MISEDUCATION IS ALL THAT THEY KNOW. MM-HMM . SO I THINK THAT IF, IF THEY JOIN TOGETHER IN UNDERSTANDING JUNETEENTH AND UNDERSTANDING THE BLACK EXPERIENCE, THAT THAT WOULD GO A GREAT MEASURE TOWARDS COMBATING MANY OF THE FALSEHOODS AND THE, AND THE, THE, THE GAPS THAT PEOPLE FILL IN WITH NEGATIVE INFORMATION AND ASSUMPTIONS AND STEREOTYPES ABOUT BLACK AMERICA. 'CAUSE THE BATTLES THAT BLACK AMERICA ARE STILL FA FACING AND FIGHTING TODAY, THE [00:05:01] HERITAGE OF THAT STILL COMES OUTTA SLAVERY. CERTAINLY. AND SO TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHOLE SLAVERY AND AFTER SLAVERY FREEDOM, ET CETERA, AND MOVING INTO THE ERA OF UNDERSTANDING THE INEQUITIES QU AND INEQUALITIES THAT WE STILL HAVE SO PERSISTENT TODAY CAN BE TRACED BACK TO SLAVERY. WELL, CERTAINLY. WELL, CERTAINLY. AND AND IF YOU CAN, IF YOU CAN TRACE BACK THE ECONOMIC DEPRIVATION, THE, THE HISTORICAL ILLITERACY, THE, THE EDUCATIONAL STRUGGLES THAT BLACK FOLK HAVE HAPPENED HAVE HAD TO SUFFER THROUGH SINCE 1865. AND REALLY BEFORE, WE CAN ALSO TRACE THE REVERSE IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ECONOMIC DEPRIVATION COMING FROM SLAVERY, WE GOTTA TALK ABOUT ECONOMIC SURPLUS. MM-HMM . COMING FROM SLAVERY AT THE EXACT SAME TIME, BECAUSE THOSE TWO THINGS GO HAND IN HAND. SO WITHOUT KNOWING THEIR HISTORY, WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING THE IDEA THAT THE ENTIRE HISTORICAL NARRATIVE AND STORY HAS TO BE TALKED ABOUT AND HAS TO BE TALKED ABOUT AND TAUGHT IN A VERY EVIDENCE-BASED WAY, AND NOT JUST THE BLACK AMERICA, BUT ALSO THE WHITE AMERICA. RIGHT. AS WELL. RIGHT, RIGHT. ALL AMERICANS NEED TO BE IMMERSED IN AFRICAN-AMERICAN HISTORY. SO THERE'S BACKLASH THAT WE HAVE NOW MM-HMM . AGAINST D AND I HAS TO DO, I THINK SO MUCH WITH NOT ONLY NOT WANTING TO LEARN THAT HISTORY AND LEARN THE TRUTH, BUT THAT THAT TRUTH SOMEHOW IMPINGES, IMPINGES ON ONE'S UNDERSTANDING OF THEIR ROLE GOING FORWARD IN THIS VERY DIVERSE, NOT DEMOGRAPHICALLY CHANGED SOCIETY. MM-HMM . YOU KNOW, MOST PEOPLE ARE, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH A CAPITALIST NATION DEALING SPECIFICALLY WITH, WITH WHITE AMERICA, THEY'RE DEALING WITH THE SAME STRUGGLES THAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE DEALING WITH, AND IN MANY WAYS, THEY'RE TRYING TO KEEP THEIR HEADS ABOVE WATER. MM-HMM . THEY'RE TRYING TO HAVE THEIR, THEY HAVE THEIR OWN VERSION OF IT TRYING TO KEEP UP WITH THE JONESES AND THIS IDEA OF INCLUSION, THEY'RE APPROACHING IT LIKE ALAN BKE, THE JEWISH GENTLEMAN THAT RIGHT. THAT SUED, UH, THE CALIFORNIA SYSTEM FOR ADMISSION TO MEDICAL SCHOOL THAT TO INCLUDE SOMEONE MEANS TO EXCLUDE SOMEONE ELSE. EXACTLY. AND THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS, IS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT LARGER CONCEPTS THAT GO INTO ECONOMICS, GO INTO SHOULD YOU OR SHOULD YOU NOT HAVE, UH, THE RIGHT TO UNIONIZE AS A LABOR MOVEMENT AND WHAT HAVE YOU. SO THESE ARE COMPLEX ISSUES, AND TO, TO HAVE PEOPLE WHO JUST LOOK AT IT STRICTLY AS BLACK AND WHITE. WELL, IF IT'S GOOD FOR BLACK FOLK, IT'S GONNA BE BAD FOR WHITE FOLK. THAT'S A VERY MYOPIC WAY OF LOOKING AT, AT THE WORLD AND LIFE IN GENERAL. BUT ISN'T THIS MISINFORMATION ON PURPOSE? I WOULD ARGUE IT IS ON PURPOSE BECAUSE THE FEAR THAT WE'RE TRYING TO INSTILL MM-HMM . THE ANXIETY, THE STRESS THAT AS YOU SAID, SOMETHING'S GONNA BE TAKING, TAKEN AWAY FROM ME. MM-HMM . SOMEONE'S TRYING TO REPLACE US. CERTAINLY WE DON'T KNOW. AND THIS IS WHERE THE INSECURITY COMES IN. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT OUR ROLE WILL BE IN THE FUTURE GOING FORWARD MM-HMM . BECAUSE NOW WE'RE GOING TO BE IN THE MINORITY MM-HMM . AND WE, WE KNOW WHAT WE HAVE DONE TO OTHERS WHEN THEY WERE IN THE MINORITY. MM-HMM . THE FEAR IS I THINK THEY'RE GONNA TURN AROUND AND DO, AND SO THE QUESTION BECOMES, IN THIS AGE OF COMMUNITY, IN THIS AGE OF STILL, DR. KING'S HOPE FOR THE BELOVED COMMUNITY MM-HMM . OF GETTING PEOPLE TOGETHER TO UNDERSTAND THE TRUTH AND THE FACTS IN AN HONEST WAY. BECAUSE WHEN YOU AND I WERE TALKING ONCE BEFORE, TRUTH IS HARD TO FIND NOW. MM-HMM . AND THAT'S WHY EVERYBODY'S VERY SKEPTICAL. MM-HMM . TRUTH IS VERY HARD TO FIND BECAUSE TRUTH BITES YES. WHO IT BITES. YEP. TRUTH HITS WHO IT HITS. AND WHEN YOU, WHEN YOU APPROACH TRUTH WITH A, THE CONCLUSION ALREADY OF WHAT YOU WANT TO, UH, WHERE YOU WANNA ARRIVE AT. RIGHT. YOU CAN STRUCTURE AND MOVE TRUTH AROUND ONE OF THE, THE HARSHEST THINGS FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND, AND ESPECIALLY WHEN, WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RACIAL INEQUALITY AND WHITE AMERICA IS QUITE SIMPLY THAT AN AFRICAN AMERICAN MALE WITH A BA IS STILL ECONOMICALLY NOT GOING TO MAKE AS MUCH AS A HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATE WHO HAPPENS TO BE A WHITE MALE. MM-HMM . AND I, I BELIEVE THAT IF THERE, IF THERE'S AN UNDERSTANDING AND A RECOGNITION OF THAT, THEN YOU HAVE A WHOLE DIFFERENT CONVERSATION VERSUS WHAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW, WHICH IS QUITE SIMPLY, YOU WILL NOT REPLACE US. YEAH. WHICH IS OF COURSE AN OLD NAZI CHANCE. RIGHT. RIGHT. THAT HAS BEEN REHASHED, RECYCLED AND DISPENSED. AGAIN, IT SEEMS TO ME, IN THIS QUEST THAT WE HAVE FOR EQUITY MM-HMM . WHICH HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE ISSUE, THAT EQUITY HAS ITS ROOTS AND FOUNDATION IN BEING ABLE TO BE SUCCESSFUL IF ONE HAS EMPATHY. THE ROAD TO EQUITY HAS ALWAYS BEEN THROUGH EMPATHY. WE DON'T HAVE ANY EMPATHY. AND THE REASON I THINK WE DON'T HAVE EMPATHY, WE DON'T KNOW EACH OTHER. TO HAVE EMPATHY, YOU HAVE TO HAVE RELATIONSHIPS. MM-HMM . RELATIONSHIPS BUILT ON MUTUAL TRUST AND RESPECT. 'CAUSE NOTHING HAPPENS WITHOUT TRUST. SO IN THIS LACK OF ERA OF NO TRUST, BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T TAKEN THE TIME [00:10:01] TO DEVELOP THE RELATIONSHIPS, WE DON'T HAVE ANY EMPATHETIC HEARTS. MM-HMM . AND THE EMPATHETIC, THE LACK AND THE ABSENCE OF THE EMPATHETIC HEART ALLOWS THIS DISCUSSION AND EQUITY JUST FALL ON DEAF EARS. MM-HMM . BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE ANY CONNECTION TO YOU. MM-HMM . YOU KNOW, ONE, ONE OF THE MOST REVERBERATING QUOTES, UH, DR. KING THAT I, THAT I JUST LOVE, IS THAT IT SEEMS THAT ALL THE, ALL THE PEOPLE WITH ALL THE POWER DON'T HAVE ANY CONSIDERATION FOR OTHER FOLK. AND THOSE WHO DO HAVE CONSIDERATION, THEY DON'T HAVE ANY POWER. THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE TO REARRANGE AS THIS NATION. AND WHEN YOU, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE NEED FOR EMPATHY, THE ABSENCE OF EMPATHY COMES FROM SEVERAL PLACES. I WOULD, I WOULD ARGUE ONE IS QUITE SIMPLY NOT BEING A FULLY DEVELOPED HUMAN BEING. OF COURSE, YOU HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED THE WORLD. YES. AND ONE OF THE REASONS WHY MANY OF OUR HIGH AND MIGHTY POLITICAL LEADERS WHO WERE BASICALLY BORN NOT ON THIRD BASE, BUT ON THEIR WAY HOME, ALMOST INTO A SLIDE, THEY, THEY'VE NEVER, THEY'VE NEVER EXPERIENCED NOT BEING ABLE TO EAT, NOT BEING ABLE TO, TO FEED YOUR CHILDREN. NOT, THEY CANNOT IDENTIFY RIGHT. WITH YOUR SUFFERING AND YOUR PLIGHT. THEY, THEY ATTRIBUTE IT TO A PERSONAL FLAW, NOT A SYSTEMIC PROBLEM THAT CAN AFFECT PRETTY MUCH ANYONE IN THE WORLD EXCEPT FOR THEM. DO YOU THINK THAT'S A GOOD POINT YOU JUST RAISED AFTER ALL THESE YEARS TO NOT WANT TO GET IT, AS THE WOULD SAY, TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS A, A, A VERY SYSTEMATIC PROCESS THAT'S HAPPENING AND NOT A PERSONAL FLAW. THE OLD PEOPLE WOULD SAY, THAT'S A COP OUT. MM-HMM . BECAUSE BY NOW EVERYBODY SHOULD UNDERSTAND AS MUCH AS WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT SYSTEMIC RACISM, ABOUT INJUSTICE, ABOUT ALL THE THINGS TO SAY THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS, BECAUSE OF SOME GENETIC FLAW, ARE NOT FULLY HUMAN OR NOT EQUAL, OR THE CONSTITUTION EVEN TRY TO MAKE US, UH, ONLY PART OF THE, OF A HUMAN BEING, THE ACHIEVEMENTS, THE ACCOMPLISHMENTS, THE PHDS, THE SCIENCES THAT WE HAVE. MM-HMM . ONE CANNOT SAY THAT ANYMORE UNLESS ONE TRULY IN ONE'S HEART IS DETERMINED TO KEEP THAT PERSON. MM-HMM . DOWN. MM-HMM . MM-HMM . WELL, WHEN, WHEN YOU'RE, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THIS IDEA OF BLACK ACHIEVEMENT AND THE, THE UNDERSTANDING THAT WE DO HAVE SOME WITH BAS MAS, PHDS, WHAT HAVE YOU. RIGHT. YOU KNOW, WE, WE HAVE MULTIMILLIONAIRES. IF YOU, YOU TAKE A LOOK AT SOME OF OUR POP CULTURE STORIES RIGHT HERE, HOUSTON, WE GOT GREAT SUCCESS STORIES. YEAH. WE HAVE GREAT SUCCESS STORIES, YET AT THE EXACT SAME TIME IN WHITE AMERICA. WE HAVE GREAT SUCCESS STORIES. YET AT THE SAME TIME, WE HAVE SOME WHO ARE THE POOREST OF POOR, AND FAR TOO MANY OF OUR PEOPLE ARE DEALING WITH WHAT I REFER TO AS MULTIPLE INTERLOCKING LITERACIES. THEY'RE ILLITERATE ECONOMICALLY, POLITICALLY, SOCIALLY, AND ALL OF THESE THINGS KIND OF WORK TOGETHER TO KEEP THEM LOCKED OUT OF MAINSTREAM SOCIETY. WE'RE GONNA PICK UP THAT POINT AFTER BREAK. UH, WE'RE GONNA TAKE A SMALL PAUSE AND BREAK, AND WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH DR. JONES, AND WE'RE GONNA EXPLORE KIND OF A LITTLE DEEPER IN THE DIVE INTO THIS ISSUE OF WHERE WE'RE HEADED AS AFRICAN AMERICAN BLACK PEOPLE TODAY, AND WHAT WE NEED TO DO PERSONALLY TO MAKE THAT DREAM A REALITY. PLEASE STAY TUNED. PLEASE STAY TUNED. WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK. WELCOME BACK TO CONVERSATIONS WITH LARRY PAYNE. WE'RE GONNA PICK UP WHAT WE LEFT OFF WITH DR. JONES. UH, WE'RE TRYING TO LOOK AT THIS INTERSECTION BETWEEN POLITICS, POWER, PERSONALITIES, ALL THOSE THINGS THAT KIND OF BEAR DISPROPORTIONATELY ON AFRICAN AMERICAN PEOPLE TODAY TO KEEP THINGS KIND OF WHERE THEY ARE AS OPPOSED TO WHERE THEY NEED TO BE. WE NEED TO LOOK A LITTLE DEEPER AND FIGURE OUT WHY WE CONTINUE TO FOCUS ON THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY AS SOMEONE TO BE HELPED AND SERVED AS A CHARITABLE KIND OF ENDEAVOR. MM-HMM . RATHER THAN TALKING ABOUT WHAT IT'S GONNA TAKE TO GET TO TRUE JUSTICE. MM-HMM . UH, I USE THE WORD SOCIAL JUSTICE HESITANTLY BECAUSE AS SOON AS YOU SAY IT, PEOPLE KIND OF GO, THAT'S WHY I USE, THAT'S WHY I USE EQUITY MOST OF THE TIME, RATHER THAN SOCIAL JUSTICE. MM-HMM . BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE THING THAT HAS KEPT AND CONTINUES TO KEEP AFRICAN AMERICANS DOWN IS OUR INABILITY, ALONG WITH SOCIETY'S UNWILLINGNESS TO LOOK UPSTREAM AND HAVE A UPSTREAM MENTALITY. MM-HMM . WE'RE GOOD AT DOWNSTREAM AFTER THE FACT. MM-HMM . WE'RE GOOD AT CHARITY MM-HMM . AFTER THE FACT. MM-HMM . WE'RE GOOD AT ALL THOSE THINGS. AND WE COME TOGETHER AND WE RALLY IN THE SENSE OF EMERGENCIES, BUT UNTIL WE DO SOME SYSTEMIC CHANGE AND LOOK UPSTREAM OF WHAT'S CAUSING THE ISSUES WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH DOWNSTREAM. MM-HMM . WE'RE GONNA [00:15:01] CONTINUE TO BE IN THIS, IN THIS CATCH 22 BECAUSE JUSTICE, AS YOU KNOW, POLICY, SYSTEMIC CHANGE IS ALL UPSTREAM THINKING. MM-HMM . WE'RE DOWNSTREAM PEOPLE, SOME OF US, WE, WE SOME, WELL, NO, SOME OF US, BECAUSE THOSE WHO WANT TO BE UPSTREAM CAN'T GET THE MASSES TO JOIN THEM BECAUSE THEY'RE COMFORTABLE. WE'VE GOTTEN VERY COMFORTABLE IN THIS DOWNSTREAM, GIVE IT TO ME, GIVE IT TO ME. MM-HMM . UH, AND I THINK THAT THE CHALLENGE THAT I SEE FOR THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO BRING AFRICAN AMERICANS INTO THAT UPSTREAM THINKING MM-HMM . YOURSELF AND OTHERS THAT I KNOW ALL ACROSS THE CITY AND, AND, AND COUNTRY, IT'S AN UPHILL BATTLE CERTAINLY, BECAUSE THAT MEANS I HAVE TO BE COMMITTED, I HAVE TO BE WILLING TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO THAT COMMITMENT. MM-HMM . AFTER PUTTING LONG HARD WORK, YOU MAY NOT SEE THE FRUIT OF YOUR LABOR FOR YEARS MM-HMM . AND NOBODY SEEMS TO WANT TO TAKE ON THAT EFFORT. YOU KNOW, I, I, I DISAGREE. OKAY. THAT NOBODY WANTS TO TAKE ON THAT EFFORT BECAUSE WE WE'RE TAKING IT NOT ENOUGH OF US. YEAH. WE'RE, SOME OF US ARE TAKING ON THAT EFFORT ON A DAILY BASIS. WE YEAH. YOU'RE DOING IT IN YOUR WORK, EVEN WITH THE, THE, THE MANHOOD RACE AND CULTURE THING. YEAH. YEAH. WE, WE DO. THAT'S WHAT I DO. THAT'S WHAT I WAS BORN TO DO. RIGHT. THAT WAS WHAT I WAS, I WAS GROOMED AND I WAS SOCIALIZED TO DO THE, THE ISSUE THAT WE HAVE IS QUITE SIMPLY, I THINK THAT WE ARE, THAT OUR IDEA OF BEING A COLLECTIVE PEOPLE IS HOLDING US BACK. WE'VE NEVER BEEN A COLLECTIVE PEOPLE I KNOW, BUT THE IDEA OF US BEING A COLLECTIVE THAT I KNOW ALL OF US MUST GO, IS HOLDING US BACK. IT'S A DREAM WE'VE HELD OUT FOR. YES. AND IT'S A DREAM THAT IS IN MANY WAYS, HOLDING US, PULLING US BACK, . WE HAVE TO REALLY UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S A BLESSING AND A CURSE, ALMOST AN EXCALIBUR SWORD. RIGHT. THAT WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT OUR PEOPLE WE'RE VERY FADDISH AND TRENDY. I CAN REMEMBER, YOU KNOW, I'M, I'M A STILL A LOVER OF HIP HOP CULTURE, AND I REMEMBER THE LATE EIGHTIES AND NINETIES, THE EX HATS PUBLIC ENEMY FIGHT THE POWER. EVERYBODY WAS NATIONALISTIC AT THAT MOMENT. RIGHT. EVEN THOSE WHO WEREN'T POLITICIZED. RIGHT. WHICH IS A VERY INTERESTING PROCESS IN ITSELF. WE'RE PROBABLY STILL GOT WARDROBE SOMEWHERE THAT REPRESENTS THAT AREA. YEAH. YEAH. STILL DO, STILL HAVE SOME OF MY T-SHIRTS. AND SO WE, WE HAVE A SITUATION WHERE WE NEED THAT CADRE OF INDIVIDUALS TO LEAD AND OTHERS ARE GOING TO JUST QUITE SIMPLY HAVE TO FALL, HAVE TO FOLLOW. AND YOU, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WHITE AMERICA, WHITE AMERICA'S NOT 100% POLITICIZED. YEAH. WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE JEWISH COMMUNITY, THEY'RE NOT 100% POLITICIZED. THEY HAVE A GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS WHO SET UP A STRUCTURE AND BASICALLY SAY, LISTEN, THIS IS WHAT WE'RE DOING. IF YOU WANT SOME BENEFITS OFF OF THIS, THIS IS WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO. BUT I HEARD SOMETHING EARLY IN MY ACTIVIST CAREER, AND BROTHER SAID TO ME, HE SAID, LISTEN, THE FIRST RULE THAT YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO ACCEPT IS THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE GONNA BREAK YOUR HEART OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. THAT'S TRUE. HE SAID, NOW IF YOU CAN ACCEPT THAT, THEN YOU CAN DO THIS WORK. SO WE HAVE TO HAVE A CADRE THAT GOES AHEAD, IF, IF POLITICS IS YOUR THING, WE NEED TO BE ON THE GROUND RUNNING WITH POLITICS 24 7 AND UNDERSTANDING THAT QUITE SIMPLY, THE MAJORITY OF THE MASSES ARE NOT GOING TO BE INTERESTED AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO JOIN. AND IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY, AND I TELL PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE JEWISH COMMUNITY, PRIMARY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US AND THEM IS QUITE SIMPLY, THEY EDUCATE THEIR OWN MM-HMM . AND SO WE HAVE TO BE VERY COGNIZANT THROUGH THEIR HISTORY, THROUGH EVERY ASPECT OF JEWISH LIFE, EVERY ASPECT, EVERY YOUNG KID KNOWS IT HAS TO LEARN IT, NOT OPTIONAL. AND WE SEND OUR KIDS TO A NON-REFLECTIVE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM YEP. THAT IS FIGHTING AGAINST THE IDEA OF EVEN HAVING BLACK HISTORY OR AFRICAN-AMERICAN STUDIES TALK. YEP. BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT ANYBODY'S FEELINGS TO BE HURT. AND WHEN YOU REALLY THINK ABOUT THE DENIGRATION OF THE BLACK IMAGE, AND I'M TALKING ABOUT THE BLACK IMAGE IN GENERAL, WE HAVE TO BE VERY TRUE ABOUT THIS AND SAY THAT SO MUCH THAT IS CREATED DOESN'T HAVE ITS GENESIS WITHIN BLACK AMERICA. TRULY. AND OFTENTIMES, I'M SEEING MANY OF MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS ADOPT SOME OF THESE PATTERNS, THESE TRENDS, THESE FADS, ALMOST AS IF IT'S A REBELLIOUS MOMENT MM-HMM . AND IT GUARANTEES THAT THEY WILL NEVER MERGE INTO PRODUCTIVE SOCIETY. AND THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THE COLLEGIATE, THE HBCU EXPERIENCE, THE COLLEGIATE EXPERIENCE IS SO IMPORTANT FOR FIRST GENERATION COLLEGE STUDENTS LIKE MYSELF, BECAUSE I GET IMMERSED IN SOMETHING DIFFERENT MM-HMM . MM-HMM . AND BY MY JUNIOR YEAR IS NORMAL. AND YOU'RE SURROUNDED, YOU'RE SUPPORTED, YOU'RE UNDERGIRDED, YOU'RE REINFORCED EVERY DAY AND TAUGHT, THIS IS WHO WE ARE. YEAH. YEAH. YOU AND I ARE OLD ENOUGH BOTH TO, [00:20:01] I FEEL LIKE I'M RELIVING 1968 ALL OVER AGAIN. OKAY. UM, YOU KNOW, IT STRUCK ME THAT THE SEVENTH ANNIVERSARY OF BROWN VERSUS THE BOARD OF EDUCATION MM-HMM . IS NEXT YEAR WE'VE GONE FROM , FROM SEGREGATION TO INTEGRATION TO NOW RESEGREGATION MM-HMM . AND, AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND THE ACHIEVEMENT, WE'RE TAKING SO MANY STEPS BACKWARDS RATHER THAN FORWARD. MM-HMM . SO THE QUESTION WE HAVE TO ASK OURSELVES, WHAT DO WE EXPECT AS A COMMUNITY WHO IS NOT TOTALLY 100% TOGETHER IN THEIR THINKING MM-HMM. MM-HMM . BUT FOR THOSE WHO DO TRY TO LOOK AHEAD AND HAVE THE VISION, WHAT DO WE NEED, WANT AND EXPECT OF THAT SYSTEM THAT WE'RE ENTRUSTING OUR CHILDREN TO EVERY DAY? AND WHAT'S OUR ROLE IN HELPING TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN TO WHAT WE SAY WE WANT? MM-HMM . I THINK NOW THAT THE SCHOOLS ARE RE-SEGREGATED AGAIN, AND YOU GOT BASICALLY 80, 90% ALL ONE RACE SCHOOLS, AGAIN, WE AS A COMMUNITY HAS A, HAVE A GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY TO STEP IN AS OUR PARENTS DID, AND GRANDPARENTS MM-HMM . AND BE PART OF THAT SCHOOLING AND THAT EDUCATION AND ON THAT CAMPUS MM-HMM . AS MENTORS, AS TUTORS, AS SUPPORTERS, AS WHATEV, AS FATHERS ON CAMPUS, AS MEN, ON CAMPUS, AS WHATEVER IT'S GONNA TAKE. MM-HMM . A BLACK MALE PRESENCE, WHICH IS ABSENCE IN MOST OF THOSE, THOSE SCHOOLS. AND I THINK WHAT WE'RE BEGINNING TO SEE FROM SOME OF THE CONVERSATIONS, EVEN IN THE CITY, THAT IF WE DON'T DO IT, THE ERA OF BEING ABLE TO BLAME THE WHITE MAN IS OVER. YES. THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE MAYBE WHAT THEY DID BY TAKING THE SCHOOLS OVER. MM-HMM . IT'S DONE NOW, RIGHT? YEAH. SO YOU GOTTA YOU GOTTA LIVE WITH IT. YEAH. HOW CAN WE TAKE THAT NOW AND EMBRACE IT AND TURN IT INTO A POSITIVE BY GETTING ENGAGED TO HELP EDUCATE OUR OWN STUDENTS. MM-HMM . THAT'S THE QUESTION. IT SEEMS TO ME. I MEAN, I THINK YOU ANSWERED THE QUESTION RIGHT THERE AT THE END, BY GETTING ENGAGED. WE HAVE TO, TO MAKE A, A REALISTIC SUMMATION OF WHERE WE ARE. THE VAST MAJORITY OF OUR CHILDREN ARE GOING TO GO THROUGH A PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATION. YOU HAVE TWO PATHS THERE. EITHER YOU'RE GONNA GET ENGAGED WITH THAT PROCESS AND YOU'RE GOING TO MENTOR, YOU'RE GOING TO GO IN THERE AND SUPPLEMENT, AND HOPEFULLY WE HAVE SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS WHO ARE WELCOMING OF THOSE THINGS. HOPEFULLY, HOPEFULLY THEY'RE, THEY'RE, I TAKE NOTHING FOR GRANTED. RIGHT. HOPEFULLY WE DO. THE OTHER PATH THAT YOU HAVE IN REGARDS TO THAT, AND I'M, I'M JUST TRYING TO STAY POSITIVE, IS THE SATURDAY SCHOOL MOVEMENT. RIGHT. RIGHT. AND I, I CAN TELL YOU, AS SOMEONE WHO WE STARTED A, THERE'S FIVE OR SIX OF US, WE STARTED A SATURDAY SCHOOL AND THERE WAS NOT A SATURDAY AFTER ADVERTISING AND, AND EVERYTHING THAT WE DID WHERE WE HAD MORE THAN SIX CHILDREN, WOW. THERE, AND IT TAKES ALL OF US, YOU KNOW, AND WHAT WE'RE REALLY TALKING ABOUT IS A NEED TO RE TO REPRIORITIZE BLACK AMERICA'S PRIORITIES BECAUSE THOSE WHO ARE ACTUALLY FLOURISHING, AND THERE ARE SOME OF US WHO ARE FLOURISHING AND DOING IT MM-HMM . YEAH. SOME OF THESE CHILDREN ARE IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM THERE, GO TO THE HOME AND SEE, AND SEE WHAT'S THERE. AND IT'S THAT INFRASTRUCTURE, THAT UNBENDING, UNYIELDING INFRASTRUCTURE THAT THEY'RE GETTING FROM THE HOME THAT ALLOWS THEM TO FLOURISH IF THEY'RE LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE THAT KIND OF HOME STRUCTURE. YES. YES. IF THEY'RE, IF THEY'RE LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE THAT, THEN THEY CAN FLOURISH. RIGHT. SO WE, AS, AS A COMMUNITY AND, AND WE, WE HAVE TO REALLY BEGIN TO IMPLEMENT OUR RHETORIC, WHICH IS QUITE SIMPLY, IT TAKES A VILLAGE TO RAISE A CHILD. RIGHT. WELL, WE, WE NEED TO, TO GO AHEAD AND ACTIVATE THE VILLAGE OR BURN THE VILLAGE DOWN BEFORE ROUND OF TIME. UH, GIVE US A LITTLE BIT, UH, QUICK DESCRIPTION OF THE WONDERFUL WORK YOU'RE DOING THROUGH, UH, THE CULT MANHOOD AND RACE CULTURE. YOU KNOW, I, I WAS CHALLENGED BY MY STUDENTS BECAUSE THEY, THEY'RE ADDICTED TO THEIR PHONES. RIGHT. AND SOCIAL MEDIA, AND NOTHING BURNS ME UP MORE THAN SEE THEM ON THEIR PHONES WHEN I'M LECTURING UNTIL THEY TOLD ME, DOC, WE WE'RE ACTUALLY TAKING NOTES AND OUR BOOK IS ON THE PHONE. RIGHT. IT BLEW MY MIND. RIGHT. OKAY. AND THEY CHALLENGED ME TO DO SOMETHING WITH TECHNOLOGY THAT WOULD BE UPLIFTING, AND THAT WAS THE BIRTH OF MANHOOD, RACE AND CULTURE. AND, UH, YOU CAN GET TO IT BY MANHOOD RACE CULTURE.COM. WE ALSO HAVE A YOUTUBE CHANNEL, MANHOOD RACE IN CULTURE WONDER. OKAY. IT'S WRITINGS ABOUT AFRICAN AMERICANS, UM, AFRICAN AMERICAN MALES, UM, IN GENERAL. AND I'M WORKING RIGHT NOW ON MY SECOND VOLUME OF A BOOK TITLED FOOLISH FLOYD, THE RETURN OF THE CONTRARIAN. SO IF ANYONE WANTS TO SUPPORT US, AH, OKAY. YOU GO TO AMAZON, YOU CAN GET A COPY OF FOOLISH FLOYD. AND ALSO I'M, UM, I JUST FINISHED AND I'M GETTING READY TO SEND IT OFF TO WELL, VERY GOOD. HAVE IT PUBLISHED. UH, ANOTHER BOOK TITLED, DEAR SON, A ROADMAP TO SUCCESS FOR AFRICAN AMERICAN MALES. SO THAT BE OUR, WELL, THAT'S, THAT ONE SHOULD BE RIGHT, RIGHT ON TIME. [00:25:01] OKAY. SO, YEAH, SO, SO WOULD APPRECIATE ANY SUPPORT. ALL RIGHT. FOR INDEPENDENT BLACK SCHOLARSHIP. WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. THANK YOU FOR THE INVITE. UM, WE'RE GONNA PROBABLY HAVE TO PICK THIS UP AGAIN ANOTHER TIME DOWN THE ROAD. MAYBE WE'LL HAVE A COUPLE OF OTHER COLLEAGUES JOIN US AND WE CAN HAVE A DEEPER DIVE INTO THIS STUFF. LET'S DO IT. UH, A FEW CLOSING DOTS REAL QUICK. YES, YES. JUNETEENTH IS AROUND THE CORNER AND WE WILL CELEBRATE IT AGAIN, AND WE WILL HOPEFULLY HAVE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE TRUE HISTORY AND THE TRUE MEETING OF JUNETEENTH GOING FORWARD. BUT HERE'S, I THINK WHAT ALWAYS HAPPENS EVERY YEAR. SO JUNETEENTH IS THE MIDDLE OF THE SUMMER. WE GOT SIX MONTHS LEFT AT THE END OF THE YEAR. YOU DON'T HEAR MUCH DISCUSSION ABOUT BLACK AND AFRICAN AMERICAN ISSUES AND PROBLEMS AND NEEDS AND CONCERNS UNTIL WHAT, UNTIL JANUARY 15TH, ROLLS AROUND MARTIN LUTHER KING'S BIRTHDAY, AND FROM JANUARY 15TH TO THE END OF FEBRUARY FOR THOSE SIX WEEKS FOR AFRICAN AMERICAN HISTORY MONTH, WE DIVE INTO EVERYTHING THAT'S BLACK. WE UNDERSTAND HISTORY, WE DO HISTORY, FOLKLORE, CULTURE, ART, MUSIC, EVERYTHING THAT'S GOOD AND WONDERFUL ABOUT THE BLACK COMMUNITY AND THE BLACK CULTURE. WE CELEBRATE AND THEN WE FORGET ABOUT IT AGAIN AT THE END OF FEBRUARY. AND NOTHING MUCH IS SAID OR DONE UNTIL JUNETEENTH THE NEXT YEAR ROLLS AROUND. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT AS WE WERE TALKING WITH DR. JONES, TO BE PROACTIVE RATHER THAN BE REACTIVE, TO FOCUS ON UPSTREAM THINKING RATHER THAN DOWNSTREAM REACTIONARY AFTER THE FACT, TO UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S ABOUT POLICY, IT'S ABOUT POLITICS, ABOUT SYSTEMIC CHANGE, IT'S ABOUT COMMITMENT. IT'S ABOUT BEING WILLING TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO THAT COMMITMENT BECAUSE WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ARE THREE IMPORTANT ELEMENTS THAT MUST HAPPEN. TRANSPARENCY, ACCOUNTABILITY, AND TRUST. THOSE THREE CORNERSTONES ARE IMPORTANT TO THE FUTURE OF WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DEVELOP. TRUST IS REALLY THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE. THERE'S SUCH A LACK OF TRUST, A VOID OF TRUST AMONG HUMAN BEINGS WITHIN THE RACE, AMONG THE RACES, OUTSIDE OF THE RACES. AND SO WE HAVE TO WORK ON THAT. IT'S BEEN TRUE THROUGHOUT HISTORY. THE SAME FIVE THINGS HOLD TRUE POWER, PEOPLE, POLICIES, AND POLITICS. THE OTHER ONE IS PERSONALITIES. LEADERSHIP. THE LEADERSHIP THAT MUST EMERGE IN THIS ERA TO BEGIN TO PULL ALL THESE STRANDS TOGETHER THAT I JUST MENTIONED, TO WEAVE THEM TOGETHER, TO HAVE THEIR UNDERSTAND HOW THEY'RE INTERCONNECTED, INTERRELATED, INTERDEPENDENT ON EACH OTHER IS SO IMPORTANT TO HAVE A CLEAR PICTURE GOING FORWARD OF WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE. THE REMINDERS ARE ALL AROUND US IN OUR OWN CITY OF HOUSTON, TEXAS. THE ONE THAT ALWAYS GETS ME IS THAT DEPENDING ON WHICH ZIP CODE YOU LIVE IN HOUSTON, TEXAS, THERE'S A 20 YEAR DIFFERENCE. LIFE EXPECTANCY, 20 YEARS, HEALTH DISPARITIES. THE LIST GOES ON AND ON. WE HAVE TO GO. THEY'RE TELLING ME RUNNING OUTTA TIME. AS ALWAYS, IT'S SO GREAT TO BE WITH YOU. WE LOOK FORWARD TO YOU JOINING US IN FUTURE SEGMENTS. UNTIL THEN, AS ALWAYS, BE WELL BE SAFE AND PEACE, POWER, AND LOVE. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.